Historic or Contemporary?
Hello RUSH readers, I’m working on an historic series pitch for a gay comic publisher [staples and color…sorry manga fans!], and I’ve found that I truly enjoy writing about the past. I recently finished my share of a BL light-novel project with C.B. Potts and Laura Carboni [it’s in their hands now!] which again, takes places in the past.
I tend to prefer my BL set in the past, perhaps because most contemporary BL from the Japan doesn’t speak to me on a cultural level, and so, often comes off as lame. At least with historical work, I can suspend disbelief enough to just enjoy the story. ^^’ Yes, I’m anal.
I know RUSH has at least one story set in the past, but for the most part, many of them are present-day tales. So I must ask, as readers of BL or gay comics, what sort of stories do you like most, historic or contemporary? Why? Any recs?
[oh, and admin–can we get a ‘fans’ category tag.] Thanks. ^_-
April 16th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
I prefer historical, but history is one of my areas of interest, so that means the story has to be as accurate as possible (barring some artistic license, though the less of that taken the more interesting).
I find modern-set BL too often gets away with a rampant lack of plot; the romance/sex is no good to me if there’s no solid story behind it. (My one exception is that I love Fake… which has lots of plot). And there’s too often a very set divide between ‘uke’ and ’seme’ - uke is basically a woman with a penis, seme is aggravatingly cold or an asshole, or overdoes it… At least with historical there are many time periods in which men really did dress feminine by today’s standards, so some girlishness makes some sense.
Not to say historical BL is the cure for those ills… ‘Cause an awful lot of it revolves around a) a concubine the king falls in love with and/or b) a boy who has to pretend to be a girl (i.e. his sister ran away so he’s taking her place in the marriage… misadventures ensue…) but he and the king figure still fall in love anyway.
I like realistic plots and attention to historical detail (why bother setting it in the past if you’re not going to bother researching the era, and staying true to it? Just make it fantasy instead, and pull whatever elements you like from everything). The biggest point of this is historical BL that completely disregards societal standards (such as in the 18th/19th C it really was extremely dangerous to be gay - unless you were rich you’d lose your career, your status, your life - and there was no defined concept of ‘gay’ until the 1800s; homosexuality tended to be sort of more bisexuality).
Historical or modern, the romance has to make sense. There should be some development to it, and it should be at least somewhat realistic; not just seme falls in love with beautiful face, uke spends all his time crying about the seme (even when they have sex), or similar. Non-con and such like puts me right off. Fighting is fine long as both parties are consensual. And characters that have more than one dimension (”OMG I’m an uke and I have pretty eyelashes and I cry about everything” just doesn’t do it for me). (We all probably notice I don’t like ultra-feminine ukes…).
Though modern can be awesome if it focuses on subcultures (i.e. skinheads) - writing about subcultures is as intensive as writing about history, since it takes a lot of research to portray their lifestyles and beliefs. You said “most contemporary BL from the Japan doesn’t speak to me on a cultural level”; well perhaps subcultures would give you the suspended disbelief while still understanding the culture, since subcultures usually aren’t so far off from their larger culture as to be incomprehensible, but they’re different enough to be interesting.
On the other hand, to my experience I’m of a very small minority within the BL taste range, so what I say may be moot XD
April 16th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Nah, it’s not moot–it makes sense. LOL!
I brought this up at AMLA some time ago, is historical accuracy necessary? I suggested that, or OEL creators it’s a requirement–whereas fans of Japanese BL tend to find it forgivable. I was shocked to learn on that thread, the recent trend in Japan is for more accurate representations in historical BL. According to Emi at AMLA:
There are certain historical periods that some Japanese fans get very
upset over if there are mistakes. I heard Sengoku era (Warring states
period) and the end of Edo period are ones to be especially careful
of. Fanatical fans look for small mistakes and flood the publisher and
author with complaint letters… Sangokushi is another. They’re also
picky about ENGLAND - I guess there are lots of England otaku’s out
there who are VERY offended if parts of English culture is
misrepresented…
Stories that are obviously not well researched is termed ‘nanchatte’
(loosely translates to ’sorta’). Sometimes a mangaka will freely admit
that their story takes place in a ‘nannchatte’ China or whatever,
asking to be forgiven for inaccuracies.
For some reason, no one seems to care about very inaccurate
representation of the US…(maybe because of Hollywood movies and
American TV shows, they figure anything goes in the US…)
April 16th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
I like historical fiction a lot in general, but when it comes to BL, or any kind of romance really, I tend to be a little more wary– it seems to be very easy for historical fiction to get a little on the Harlequin-novel side of things when it comes to sex/romance. But I probably wouldn’t be as worried about that for a work coming from you.
April 16th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
LOL! Hey Jen, I can be romantic…next con we’re at, all make out with you and show you how romantic I can be–but I’ll have a gun in my pocket. [After all, I do have a rep to protect]. j/k
You know that trend in Japan where one Mangaka has a hit with a certain theme, so then all the editors want similar themes from other mangaka…one of my favorites was the whole French Revolution thing. It started with Gerard and Jacques, and peaked with Black Knight [which isn’t really set in ‘France”]. What’s weird is, GtJ isn’t historically accurate in terms of presenting Gerard as a self-made man in a true cultural aspect, –but then Yoshinaga is all about character, and not so much, setting. GtJ could’ve taken place at any time in any country, and worked just as well. Black Knight’s creator, Tsurugi, just models her world ‘based on’ European courts [nannchatte Europe?] and does so well at portraying setting elements from a historical stand point, that her characters come up short–even transparent. 0_o.
I guess the trick is to not get too caught up in character, or setting, a la Pleasure Dome. LOL!
April 16th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
I’m excited that you are going to do gay comics, and that it will be historical. I feel lame even answering this, because you know already that I love historicals… On the other hand, badly done they are just awful. If the author/creator is not even going to try, contemporary is far better.
I wrote more, but transferred it to my LJ because it really didn’t server any purpose as an answer to your question.
April 16th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
Historical is my weak spot haha.
Modern or not, I usually give the story a go. While the artwork may be great or not, it is the plot which has me returning.
Historical stories tend to arouse a sense of nostalgia I think.
People are always looking back on memories in the past. Plus its just darn fun to do the resurch. You learn so many new things — its wonderful.
While modern can be done well….its the novelty of history which grabs my attention.
Theres just something….special about history I think :3
April 16th, 2007 at 11:46 pm
arouse a sense of nostalgia That’s a great point! I wonder if that’s why, in Japan, fans tend to get wanky about the accuracy of Warring States manga. ^_-
I wrote more, but transferred it to my LJ I’ll be right there!! LOL!
April 17th, 2007 at 4:43 am
I like historical. Though I notice some writers get much too anachronistic with it. Mainly in the category of women doing things no woman in the sane mind of the time period would do (not that this really applies to BL). Then again I need to be hit with a wooden mallet about the anachronistic things I do myself when writing historical… Hooray for fantasy-historical! XD That is kind of the lazy way out at times… not saying everyone who does historical fantasy is being lazy, but I know I am!
It usually helps if it is a historical period I like, I’ll pick up anything based in the Victorian Era, the 18th Century, and WWII.
Modern is good too, but I like feeling nostalgia. For some reason, minus the Dark Ages, ‘back then’ always seems more exciting… Well, escapism in general is fun.
April 17th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
Then again I need to be hit with a wooden mallet about the anachronistic things I do myself when writing historical… I do them on purpose. LOL! My days in doujinshi were marked with purists who fit the mindset of ‘it’s ok if Japanese mangaka make no sense–but you better have all your T’s crossed and your I’s dotted’ because if I didn’t, they had no qualms about griping at me over it. So in my pro work–I slip things that don’t belong in there, on purpose. –then in my notes, tell them what I did! LOL!
I even remember, when making Trigun books, I would misspell at least one word, and then dare the readers to find it. The first person who emailed about finding it, got a free print or something! ^^;
I noticed that some mangaka will just place historic stories in worlds that cannot be easily defined. Black Knight, as stated above, is one of them. Another is Inariya Fusanosuke’s Maiden Rose. It’s not WW2 Japan or Germany–but boy that battle map looks like China! ^^
April 17th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Fans tag, eh?
Sounds like a good idea..
Done and done! ^.^
April 17th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Thank you - you’sd is the greatest HSST ever!
April 18th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
I find historical manga very interesting. As an artist who has a fetish for pretty things (flowing hair, intricate patterns, regalia, rich organic settings), it’s sort of an outlet for me. As a reader, I like historical stories because of the romance — the original sense of the word.
Aside from that, if the research is done right, it can also be an enjoyable educational experience — though I’m a documentary junkie (depends on the topic actually) so maybe that’s just me. 8D; (We’re actually thinking of putting a culture trivia section after certain chapters of VF, actually, but we’re thinking that that might be overdoing it. D:)
It can get tiring to see the same overused scenario again and again (king / aristocrat + peasant / servant / prostitute), so pulling off an interesting twist, or setting the story in a certain, unique light really helps the story along.
On the other hand, it is relatively easier to get into the mood of a contemporary story since we are able to relate to the setting, and we might have some idea of the gravity of the situation, etc, so I really enjoy reading those, too. From what I’ve read, there are a lots more almost-PWPs under this category, so I rarely find memorable (for long) contemporary stories.
Historical pick - Wild Rock by Takashima Kazusa.
Contemporary pick - Last Client by Takashima Kazusa.
LOL how predictable. X)
April 18th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
fetish for pretty things I’d say it’s a downright obsession, for you Dryice! LOL!
Wild Rock? That’s prehistorical manga! XD I love that title also. There’s so much suspension of belief required, but it’s sexy and hot and it’s such a guilty pleasure. I liked the ‘fathers’ story more than the main one, perhaps because the father wasn’t as… ‘weepy’? Just my opinion.
I think a culture trivia page with each installment is a good idea. [It can’t be any worse than my Roulette Factoids page!] because there are people who enjoy learning what you’ve learned while creating a story. I know writer Koike tends write his factual ‘notations’ as part of the comic itself [Lady Snowblood is full of Japanese history tidbits!]; but he does it in a way that doesn’t take the reader out of the story. Of course, he’s been writing comics for decades–he’s a master. *is jealous*.
April 18th, 2007 at 4:12 pm
OMGGG. 8DDD I should have realized it sooner, it’s so obvious — pre-history. LOL. *bricked* It’s just that I read (and remember clearly — too clearly, maybe) in Takashima’s atogaki that her editor originally asked for a story set in ancient China, but that she thought that it would be more interesting to do a love story between cavemen — I sort of connected the two ideas. My logic is long gone, I know. |||OTL
Good point! Ah, so Roulette has such a section. I’d already submitted chapter one without one (when I could have done one on tea), so it would appear irregular to start now… Guh, I suppose I could always do two of those for Rush 2, and set the first one at the end of ch. 1 for the tankoubon. D: I wonder what approach to use… Certainly another thing to worry about, haha! Anyway, thanks, thanks!
April 18th, 2007 at 10:51 pm
i think i like both genres D:
it is like higuris ludwig II - i love it i love the climat i love story overall.
or anoter example- kazusa takashima or itsuki kanames stories which are -mostly - placed in modern times.
it mailny depends on my mood XD. to be honest i would really read everything, what have interesting characters and is about someting more than “i wil stick my dickinson into your holemes” “oh yeas please” “ah ah” “oh yes” etc Dx
if characters has catchy personality, i can fast understands it, i would really like any genre D:
April 18th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
dickinson in holemes 4TW. ^^ Now PWP historical is like what Pleasure Dome is - and while I like that sometimes [I loved Pleasure Dome] it got slammed by some critics here - one them called it, “it’s a bunch of well-dressed Ken dolls raping each other” 0__0 I was like…how dare you! LOL!
I never read Ludwig. I suppose I can go pick it up. ^_-
June 6th, 2007 at 12:51 am
I really am the worse person to ask and with much reservation I will say that while I love both pre-historical, historical and contemporary stories and would read just about anything as long as there is something to catch my attention, my true love in comics goes for post apocalyptical/futuristic settings. I just find it awesome to see the personal visions that mangakas have about the future and the way the characters interact and all, it’s great! >.>
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